[RESOLVED] Yuri Kokzhayan or Yuri Kokjaian

The database contains four profiles of a Soviet sound engineer:

Profile No. 1 - Yuri Kokzhayan
Generated over 11 years ago

Profile No. 2 - Yuri Kazhayan
Generated over 10 years ago

Profile No. 3 - Yuri Kokjaian
Generated over 11 years ago

Profile No. 4 - Jurijs Kokžajans
Generated over 11 years ago

Please express your opinion and vote on which profile to keep in the database.
Thank you all.

pakva

Cyrillic version - Юрий Кокжаян

Profile No. 1 - Yuri Kokzhayan

Profile No. 1 - Yuri Kokzhayan

It is a good transcription (real name and spelling in profile) and has by far the most entries.

Profile No. 1 - Yuri Kokzhayan

Profile No. 1 - Yuri Kokzhayan

Also bumping m8tin

vsa2011
Cyrillic version - Юрий Кокжаян

would be a good candidate (majority of use + appearing mainly on Soviet releases)
But I could live with

SM-1966
Profile No. 1 - Yuri Kokzhayan

I would prefer Profile No. 1 - Yuri Kokzhayan!

Profile No. 2 - "Yuri Kazhayan" imo is a misspelled version and seems to appear only on the EMI versions of Borodin*, Borodin String Quartet - String Quartet No. 1 In A / String Quartet No. 2 In D.

Definitely merge other three duplicates into No 1, Yuri Kokzhayan. This one is pretty self-explanatory.

vsa2011
Cyrillic version - Юрий Кокжаян

Please try to click and follow the links in the OP:
Yuri Kokzhayan - Credits: 176 (That's One Hundred Seventy-Six)
Others have 1 to 3 roles.

Creating a new artist to roll over hundreds of album entries is not a good idea, I'd say

Madang: but we should leave Profile 2 as it is, because (a) it is the only variant with a different pronounciation (the "k" is missing) and (b) is credited as a producer, not an engineer and (c) we don't have an original cyrillic version. And finally : We should remove in Profile 2 the hint on a possible misspelling, because we do not know this exactly.

Madang: but we should leave Profile 2 as it is, because (a) it is the only variant with a different pronounciation (the "k" is missing) and (b) is credited as a producer, not an engineer and (c) we don't have an original cyrillic version. And finally : We should remove in Profile 2 the hint on a possible misspelling, because we do not know this exactly.

There is no need to confuse the situation. There is only Yuri Kokzhayan (Юрий Кокжаян), not Yuri Kazhayan (Юрий Кажаян).

SM-1966
But "Yuri Kazhayan" is actually printed on some releases, see eg. Images of Borodin*, Borodin String Quartet - String Quartet No. 1 In A / String Quartet No. 2 In D!

m8tin
But "Yuri Kazhayan" is actually printed on some releases, see eg. Images of Borodin*, Borodin String Quartet - String Quartet No. 1 In A / String Quartet No. 2 In D!

Typo

I prefer New Profile - Юрий Кокжаян

m8tin
should leave Profile 2 as it is, because (a) it is the only variant with a different pronounciation (the "k" is missing)

This is what ANV (Artist Name Variation) is for — it doesn't matter how many times a variation appear, it can be singular (specific typo, etc.)

m8tin
(b) is credited as a producer, not an engineer

And why does that mean it's a different Alias? Technical role, from the same realm

Hermes-2000
I prefer New Profile - Юрий Кокжаян

Likewise, please consider practical applications. Creating a new entry to transfer ~200 album entries to something that's less accessible and harder to manage for non-Russian speakers — that'd be very fasticious and unreasonable!

Madang: Profile 2 = "Yuri Kazhayan" is possibly another person, so ANVs should not be applied and we should leave Profile 2 it as it is; this does not cause extra work, because it appears only on the Melodiya/EMI releases and nothing has to be changed there. We should prefer Profile 1, and merge Profiles 3 and 4 to Profile 1.

m8tin
"Yuri Kazhayan" is possibly another person

Agree, simply not enough evidence. I have the same situation in
https://discogs.mejorespelis.org/forum/thread/1114595
Leave Profile 2 as it is, we cannot just guess.

Profile 3 seems influenced by French, Profile 4 by Latvian. According to the rules we have to use English, hence

m8tin
merge Profiles 3 and 4 to Profile 1

which is a good transcription of Cyrillic.

Madang
Creating a new entry to transfer ~200 album entries to something that's less accessible and harder to manage for non-Russian speakers — that'd be very fasticious and unreasonable!

Agree with this too. I suggest pausing new threads until transfers are done. I did some work on transferring fom Yevgenia Perlassova (probably German transcription) but there are still leftovers.

SM-1966 already pointed out, just a typo.

1. The only role of mysterious "Yuri Kazhayan" is String Quartets Nos. 1 & 2 Melodiya's 1982 UK export print (and a few later reissues)
2. It's a reprint of the earlier regular, domestic album - Квартет № 1 Для Двух Скрипок, Альта И Виолончели Ля Мажор (1979)
3. This one is clearly credited as "Звукорежиссер - Ю. Кокжаян" (Profile 1) - see high-res scan:
https://records.su/tmppic/pics24/0000892231576650.jpg
4. When preparing imprint/credits for the foreign pressing, someone at Melodyia's office got sloppy and sound engineer Kokzhayan became "producer Kazhayan".

Thus, all three duplicates should be merged into Profile 1.

Hermes-2000
I prefer New Profile - Юрий Кокжаян

So do I !
I do not see why we would insist on transcribing someone’s name to something phonetically more or less similar. We don’t have the artist’s port and if we did it would certainly have the name in Cyrillic. Transcription rules have changed a few times and any transcription remains just a guess.

adrien.kaulmann
Hermes-2000I prefer New Profile - Юрий Кокжаян

So do I !
I do not see why we would insist on transcribing someone’s name to something phonetically more or less similar. We don’t have the artist’s port and if we did it would certainly have the name in Cyrillic. Transcription rules have changed a few times and any transcription remains just a guess.

Adrien, allow me to point out this
1. As per RSG §1.8.1, English is the default language on Discogs, and handling PANs in non-Latin script is an extra inconvenience for the majority of the base.
2. Legal names, transcription rules in ports, and frankly, even artists' personal wishes are irrelevant on Discogs; it's not an ancestry database or universal encyclopedia, but a DB strictly to catalog public representation of personnel on music releases, "as is." So that's all a bit of futile and slightly irrelevant discussions.
3. Once again, please consider practicality and common sense. It's nice and dandy if all entries would have 10-20 credits. There's no automated transfer; 180+ releases/masters will have to be manually updated one by one.

Dinara2015
Agree, simply not enough evidence.

Please, see my response to https://discogs.mejorespelis.org/forum/thread/1125154?page=1&utm_campaign=-mention&utm_source=relationship&utm_medium=email&message_id=11666230#11666236
Evidence beyond any reasonable doubt that it's the typo for the same artist.

m8tin
Madang, the release Квартет № 1 Для Двух Скрипок, Альта И Виолончели Ля Мажор does contain only the String Quartet No. 1, whereas the Melodiya/EMI release (eg. String Quartets Nos. 1 & 2) has both Quartets (No.1 and No. 2); I wonder why both are categorized under one master! The relation between the two releases is imo questionable: do we know, that the recording of Quartet No. 1 is from the same recording session (the present cast of the ensemble lasted from 1976 to 1996)? We don't know this, and therefore we should keep this "Yuri Kazhayan", until we have further proof.

I'd encourage you to provide literally a shred of a contradicting evidence, and a single mention of such a person in existence anywhere, versus my arguments here. :shrug:

P.S. I do agree, this is a minor and secondary issue, as long as there's enough concensus to merge the rest w/o creating a pointless new Cyrillic entries...

m8tin
the release Квартет № 1 Для Двух Скрипок, Альта И Виолончели Ля Мажор does contain only the String Quartet No. 1, whereas the Melodiya/EMI release (eg. String Quartets Nos. 1 & 2) has both Quartets (No.1 and No. 2); I wonder why both are categorized under one master!

I suggest pulling out the single-quartet release out of the master release right away. They do not have the same track listing and cannot be categorized as bonus tracks. Please, let us correct this without going through a separate thead.

Yuri Kokzhayan.

Madang
Adrien, allow me to point out this
1. As per RSG §1.8.1, English is the default language on Discogs, and handling PANs in non-Latin script is an extra inconvenience for the majority of the base.

This artist is not well known and just happens to be credited on some releases marketed in the Western part of the world in many ways.
Not one single time is this artist credited as :
Yuri Kokzhayan (https://discogs.mejorespelis.org/artist/1587619-Yuri-Kokzhayan?anv=Yuri%20Kokzhayan&filter_anv=1 )
All instances in the artist profile are ANVs. No release bears the name Yuri Kokzhayan.
Has RSG §2.1.2 When creating a new artist, the name entered should match the name as credited on the release (following Discogs capitalization rules) become obsolete?

I was asked to give my point of view, so I did.

A non-latin PAN is not an inconvenience at all, as long as there is an ANV resembling to your entry. The search function works as well on ANVs as on PANs, there is absolutely no reason to be afraid of anything. I am neither Russian, nor do I speak or write Russian, and still I do not have the slightest problem with artists being called by their names.

RSG §1.8.1 «English is the default language on Discogs» makes any such discussion useless, indeed.

My point is that transliterations are neither English, French, German, Spanish, nor any other language, they are confusing, full of errors and not consistent in time.

Of course you can endlessly continue discussing which transliteration rule is best, inventing new ones and using an inappropriate character set to identify an artist or you can just use the name under which the artist is known and use ANVs for all variations.
As you have been following the discussion you may have noticed that identifying an artist is not going to be any easier when you start off with an invented or funnily transliterated name.

I still defend, that an artist name, unless voluntarily changed by the artist himself (Юрий in this case), should be as close as possible to his real name, in this case be it in Cyrillic, just the way my name is written in Latin. This has nothing of an ancestry database, to me it’s common sense to look after a person by his or her name in the first place.

There have been bigger changes than 180 instances (LSO, RPO, … each > 5.000). Nobody expects these changes to be ready in 5 minutes.

• Yuri Kokzhayan, aka Yuri Kokjaian, Jurijs Kokžajans etc. is credited as an engineer;
• Yuri Kazhayan is credited as a producer.

m8tin
• Yuri Kazhayan is credited as a producer.

Please provide a link to the Soviet "producer" you mentioned.
I know a little about the history of Soviet sound recording and work with Russian sites, including archival ones.
There is NO such sound engineer, producer with such a name (Юрий Кажаян).

The majority of participants voted in favor of the following decision:

Profile No. 1 - Yuri Kokzhayan - stays in the database as PAN

Profile No. 2 - Yuri Kazhayan - do not use

Profile No. 3 - Yuri Kokjaian - do not use (possible use as ANV)

Profile No. 4 - Jurijs Kokžajans - do not use (possible use as ANV)